Kinky Sex, Race & Social Justice

Dr. Ali Mushtaq joins us to share his journey from a conservative upbringing to leather title holder and discusses how BDSM education can be more inclusive and justice-oriented. Some of the questions he covers includes:

• When and why is it important to talk about race in BDSM?
• How can we bring anti-oppression frameworks to kinky spaces?
• How do you walk to a partner about racial inequality?
• What is sexual racism and how does it cause harm — physically and emotionally?
• How do power dynamics develop in relation to erotic associations?

To learn more about Dr. Ali’s work, visit GettingWolfie.com

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Don't forget, for couples who are interested and would like to participate in a study with Couples and Sexual Health Lab, to check them out on Instagram for more information.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Kinky Sex, Race & Social Justice

 (00:00):

You're listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

Jess (00:19):

Hey, hey, Jess O’Reilly, your friendly neighbourhood sexologist here with my always lovely other half Brandon Ware.

Brandon (00:27):

Got to be honest, I'm not sure what to say. Now I feel like that's my my only line.

Jess (00:33)

I am in a really good mood this week. Lots of good stuff going on, including a big celebration. We are celebrating twenty years together sometime this week. We don't know what day but sometime this week, we hit twenty years. Like it's just, it's such a crazy feeling every year at this time. I reflect on that week that we met that lucky for you, I hit on you because you never hit on me. And you had your mom's purple Ford Escort and we hung out the Escort and then basically moved in together the next day, but twenty years is just so mind blowing to me, 'cause I I feel like a kid. I don't know if it's because we don't have kids, but I feel like I'm still in my twenties, I don't know.

Brandon (01:22)

Time flies. I will say it's surprising to think that twenty years has whipped by. And what feels great for me is that I'm excited for what the next hopefully sixty years brings. But yeah, I looked at that photo that you post and I was contemplating my style selection twenty years ago. But I'm glad that you still decided to hit on me.

Jess (01:48)

You’re talking about the photo I posted on instagram. I was dressed as a cat, so I I had on cat ears. I think it was a halloween but it may not have been halloween. Yeah like thinking back to twenty years ago just feels so good, and it's interesting because one of the activities sometimes we do with couples, is we get them to retell the story of how they met, when they met, and what it felt like, and what they remember. And sometimes just reflecting upon the past kind of reinvigorates some of the passion chemicals that you experienced in the beginning. And I definitely feel that, like when we were in lying in bed the other night kind of just chatting about what it was like when we were younger and I I really don't feel older but I feel, I don't know, like life obviously isn't as, I don't know if I want to say chaotic as it was then. We used to stay up so late, we'd eat our dinner at the convenience store at like 3 AM afterward, because we both worked in the bar, and so it's a little bit more settled. But I still I don't know, it still feels very exciting. So yeah happy anniversary baby.

Brandon (02:50):

Yeah definitely. I just wanted to comment that in contrast to the 3 AM dinners after meeting, I'm pretty sure that day we had dinner at 5 o’clock and lying in bed at 9. So yeah it's a very different.

Jess (03:01):

It's happy hour time, what can I say? Sushi rolls are cheaper at 5 o’clock. All right so today we are not just talking about ourselves and our twenty years together. We're going to be talking kinky sex and social justice with Dr. Ali Mushtaq, and I just have a couple of announcements first. One is about study, so I have a call out for a study for participants from the Couples and Sexual Health lab. I believe they’re on the east coast of Canada, but you don't have to be there to participate. They're recruiting couples who live in America or Canada, couples of all genders, sexual orientations. And it's a study on sex and relationships. It’s daily short surveys, and I think 2 longer surveys. And they're offering compensation so I thought I would bring it to to you folks, so if you have been in a relationship over a year and you're interested in participating you can learn more on their instagram. Their handle is @cashlab, like money “cash” lab because it stands for Couples and Sexual Health labs, so I’ll link it in the show notes. They have other studies running as well on low sexual desire in men and they do compensate participants. So I thought that would be interesting for you, so hopefully you check them out. I'm a fan of their work, because we need more research in this field. So I should keep an eye on their instagram and suggest that you do too, if you can participate. And of course I also want to shout out our sponsor, OHMYG. This is the silent sex toy with a massaging pearl that curves really beautiful against the G-zone internally. They've actually been sold out for a while, but they are back in stock at iobatoys.com. And I've never seen a toy like this one. It's not a vibe but more of a come hither motion with different intensities, and it was actually designed by a couple who wanted to keep their sex play private after having kids. So it's nice and quiet and you can save 30% with code DRJESS this week on the OHMYG and it's at http://www.iobatoys.com. And it's going to be linked in the show notes and in my instagram bio. And with that, I think it's time to chat. We're gonna talk leather, BDSM, with some questions about race play and how all of this ties into sex and social justice. Joining us now is. Dr. Ali Mushtaq, an author and educator. And you know really works to create socially inclusive forms of BDSM and BDSM education that are conscious about race and gender equality. Welcome and thanks for being here Ali. How you doing today?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (05:46):

I’m doing excellent. How are you?

Jess (05:48):

I’m good. I'm good and Brandon was looking forward to speaking with you. I know he's been reading some of your articles, looking through your background. And I thought we'd start from the beginning. I know you had some curiosity, as to the leather community to begin with Brandon, so I hand it off to you.

Brandon (06:02):

Ali when I was reading through, I was just so curious as to how did you get into leather? What appealed to you about it that drew you into it?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (06:12):

So basically you know, I grew up in a very conservative, sheltered part of California. I know people like to think California is this sort of liberal mecca. We have some conservative parts as well. An in fact, I actually grew up in a setting where people basically weren't comfortable around gay people. So I started to wonder, “is there more to living in this situation?” So luckily somehow I got into grad school in San Francisco, and then what ended up happening was I ended up going to Folsom Street Fair my first weekend before grad school and I started to explore my sexualities. That became like the tipping point of me seeing everybody you know naked or semi-naked playing out in the open and it was very sort of eye-opening for me as somebody who grew up in a very conservative part of town. And I was able to kind of go in and started to really learn who I was and learn all the things I was into simply because I happened to change my location. So that’s sort of how I got into the leather BDSM community.

Jess (07:16):

And when we think about shifting from a conservative community to the Folsom Street Fair - that's a big 180 right? That's sort of the best baptism by fire. For folks who are curious, do you suggest that they attend an event like that? And there are events like this across the country, of  course San Francisco is the mecca, there’s something very special going on there. But do you think that's a good place for people to start, if they are curious about leather communities or curious about BDSM?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (07:44):

Absolutely. I think that in a lot of places they have a centres and dungeons even like in their own communities possibly, that actually have the resources available to start getting involved with BDSM. So for example, for some folks there might be like LGBT nonprofits that might be in their area and they might have those resources available. Likewise some places have dungeons and other play spaces where they might be able to sort of google search around to see like where the nearest place is, they'll be able to kind of venture out that way. So you don’t have to travel all the way to San Francisco, but it's a great place to start.

Jess (08:30):

What’s the name of the big dungeon in San Francisco? I remember when I was in school, they took us to it and they took us on a tour and they walked us around and they showed us all of the different options, and you're able to not only learn, but try different things. Like you could try needling and you could try being set on fire safely and you could try, you know, being tied up and try the different props. What's the name of the huge dungeon there?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (08:54):

Possibly, I think you're thinking about the Armory.

Jess (08:57):

Yeah I think, I remember it was it was educational, it was fascinating, I felt so safe and cared for. And I think I had already kind of dabbled in a lot of these things. But even for people who were brand new to it, they made it such a welcoming environment. Now I wanna just back up, I think most people are familiar with the language of BDSM. But can you give us your version of BDSM and what it stands for?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (09:23):

BDSM stands for Bondage, Domination, Sadism and Masochism. But particularly when we're thinking about these practices, we're looking at ideas of role play and power play and being able to eroticize different kinds of power relations, at its most broad definition. But it can kind of hone in on us more specific ideas, so such as kinks and fetishes and things that you’re sexually attracted to, that aren't necessarily involving vanilla penetrative sex, but rather eroticizing different aspects of things like objects, things like power dynamics, things like being able to eroticize different situations. But the idea is that the sexuality is based on this idea that you're not involving bodies only but you're basically fetishizing things, like possibly things like being on the receiving end of some kind of stimulus or pain versus also being on the giving end of said stimulus or pain. Sometimes it doesn't involve pain, sometimes it involves some sort of feeling and basically being able to eroticize different kinds of feelings. So I think BDSM is this sort of umbrella term to sort of encompass all sorts of non vanilla, these non procreative sexualities.

Jess (10:44):

I like that. I like that you bring up power exchange, but also the fact that it doesn't have to be painful, so BDSM not just physical, there are all these different layers to it. From the emotional, to the relational, to the political, and you are a sociologist by training. So I'm so curious about the sociological view of BDSM as a practitioner and as a researcher.

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (11:06):

Thank you so much, so yeah basically as a sociologist, I mean I study a lot of things, from these large, broad situations of inequality, to basically how people experience that. And so what I did was, I took my training, that looked at things like sexism, racism, and I applied it to BDSM and specifically how individuals can experience BDSM. So basically what I did was I started to understand that even when we find things erotic, we findings erotic within the context of these other power relations. So for example, the fact that like someone who might be a women, might find the idea of dominating somebody very attractive. They're finding that idea attractive, because of this sort of social context that says that women are not necessarily dominant sexual agents. And so they're able to sort of transform and bend those kinds of stereotypes and bend those ways of being. And so from that lens, what I did was I took the principles of BDSM and I basically applied some of my sociologically acumen in order to sort of demonstrate how people can take some of these resources that BDSM offers and transport from these sort of stand points.

Jess (12:26):

So I really appreciate you bringing up power dynamics and I know in your work you also talk a lot about anti oppression frameworks and social justice frameworks and why we need to be talking about these things in the context of sex in the context of BDSM. And it makes sense from what you're describing in that oftentimes the things we play out in BDSM subvert some of these dominant power dynamics. And so how do we bring a conversation about social justice into the kink and BDSM scene?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (12:58):

Well for me, it was basically drawing upon the experiences I had with sexuality and drawing upon the experiences that I had as somebody who was brown growing up in an environment that was pretty racist. For example in gay communities, we have things called sexual racism, where we basically make assumptions about people and their sexuality based on their skin colour. So for example like one stereotype is that Asian men have small penises. Okay so that's the idea, the stereotype, and so because that's the case they assume that Asian men are submissive, and as a result of that they're not able to then access certain sexual partners. So basically because I've seen those experiences as somebody who was someone of colour, I decided to basically create a framework for people who are of colour and who are not of colour, who basically want to learn more and experience their sexualities, in order for them to sort of learn how to create better sex lives from the perspective that they are removing these sort of social hierarchies from their schema, so to speak, their mindset and that should allow them to explore. So for example, you know with that example of Asian men being seen as submissive, just this idea that well if I might see somebody who's Asian as submissive, maybe, would I could do, is you know, sort of castaway these stereotypes and then maybe actually make the choice to talk to them and to actually interact with them to see like how they experience their sexuality, and then maybe there might be something erotic about that for me. In either they are sort of subverting these stereotypes, or maybe somehow they're basically experiencing their sexuality in a way that I didn't expect. Not only that but for the person of colour or the marginalized person in general, they are then able to sort of understand some of the ways that prevent them from being able to explore their sexuality and sort of identify those, and to sort of move past them.

So rather than looking at the typical blocks that we look for in therapy for example, things like erectile dysfunction, not being able to sort of you know, not wanting to perform or all these sort of biopsychosocial aspects. Basically looking at it from sociological perspective, where we're looking at things like race, gender and these aspects were sort of going, “Hey let's see how we can use and understand our experiences from the social aspect and then go and start these sort of sexual empowerment techniques from there. Especially simply because like we're starting to see a lot of awareness being brought to these sort of social framings of experience. For example, given like what we see with the Black Lives Matter movement, like how is that specifically making us aware about how we perceive say black sexuality? And like how is it that sort of you know, we see black communities engage in sexuality, like what are the stereotypes that they deal with, but also what are some of the things that they can find empowering? So again like it's coming from the framework that even though we might not all experience oppression in the same way, there are different aspects of our experiences that can lend themselves to sexual empowerment and being able to understand these experience and being able to transform them are really the heart of how I’m sort of structuring this program.

Jess (16:39):

So this sounds so important to me. Because when I first entered any kink spaces, whether it was a dungeon, or a party, or a conference, the spaces were very, very, white. And I imagine you ran into similar experiences.

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (16:53):

Oh absolutely and it was interesting because I can remember a play session that I had with somebody who was British early on. Because after I had my experiences in San Fransisco I moved back to LA, and what happened is I ended up playing with somebody who's British. And while you know, he was a good person and he meant very well, great intentions, it was interesting to kind of think about the experience of myself in retrospect as a south Asian man, being tied up by another British man and that sort of history of colonialism that then sort of followed suit. Even then, like when I started to go to other play arenas it was always the question of seeing people that didn't look like me. So I thought about the implications that might have when for example, if you're playing with somebody that had really dark skin and we use skin colour to judge how like if you're flogging somebody or hitting, that like we're trying to see like “oh how red is their skin getting,” but guess what? Not everybody can see that. So how do you then gauge and solve that problem when you can't see the colour of their skin? How do you know that you're not going into abusive territory versus actual staying within the sort of consent, pleasurable zone. You know I think that’s sort of something where I could kinda see that the question of being a racial minority in this space sort of come up, whereas while like you know, what are some of the things other folks might not understand if they're not necessarily inhabiting these marginalized spaces? And so that's sort of where I developed this program where it's obviously like you know, as I'm sure a lot of the sex therapists out there can relate, that communication is everything. But then at the same time it's like well, “what are we communicating, how are we communicating and how are we making sure that our partners, no matter who they are, are feeling welcome within our own interactions?” And that sort of what I'm also driving out with this program.

Jess (19:00):

So this is your BDSM course, and where can people access it?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (19:05):

Absolutely. They can access it on the website www.gettingwolfie.com.That's my main site but then my BDSM courses, https://www.gettingwolfie.com/courses/bdsm.

Jess (19:24):

We’ll make sure to include that in the course notes but www.gettingwolfie.com is the the main site. Now you're bringing up some really important topics, so when you think about your experience with a British person, is that something that you discussed? The way race play can play out, the way it can reenact traumas, the way it might be used to heal traumas for some people, is that something that you've talked about with partners?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (19:51):

Well it’s interesting because you know, when I talk to folks about race and when we talk about things like inequality obviously as brown person like I cannot leave my race at the door before I play in any situation. So I already know given any sexual situation or any erotic situation, that people are gonna come perceive me from the standpoint of my race. So basically if I'm dominating someone for example, I’m knowing that of the sexualization and the eroticization  comes from the idea that people see me as somebody who's dominant, because of that you know swarly middle eastern, like this sort of hyper exoticized person. So for me when I'm talking about my experiences and how to navigate these with other folks, what I do is I teach them how to have these conversations with their partners and specifically, how is it that you can bring up these things in a way that's tactful but also bring it up in a way that you know not creepy and appropriate?

Jess (20:57):

Years ago, I was on a panel. It was for a television show and they wanted to talk about race play, and no surprise it was all white people, and me, and they backed right down from the conversation, right? They, and I understand making space for other voices but there were no other voices there. So how do you put white people at ease talking about these issues? And I just want to kind of highlight that I appreciate you’re reminding us that you can't check your race at the door right? Because I do think people will get frustrated with us, with me even talking about race. “Oh, she's talking about race again,” but that's because it never goes away for some of us. So how do you facilitate a conversation for white people to talk about, maybe their own fragility in a paid space, in a supportive space? How do you even start that conversation?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (21:46):

When I actually talked to folks especially of colour, like we basically have a discussion to be like “look, if something is making you feel uncomfortable bring it up.” So basically I tell the people that I work with “look, you can't control what other people feel about you. You can't control how they're gonna react to you. You can only control your own thoughts and behaviours in that given moment.” So if you're saying that something makes you feel uncomfortable, you’re basically just voicing your experiences, if the other person for whatever reason has an issue with the way that you're bringing it up it's like “well, I can't control that.” But what I do on the other end, I teach the folks how to then ask them, “okay, so if this is an issue for you, I might not be experiencing what you're experiencing so therefore I am going to then try to do my best that I can to understand that position.” If I'm able to understand this or if I'm able to just listen and pull back from that given situation and let the other person take the lead on their own experiences, than at that point you know we can somehow find a consensus in a way to move forward from that particular moment. So I sort of work on both ends of the spectrum. I just want both parties to feel like they're acknowledging the situation at hand, but also being able to kind of say like “you know, if if there's something that I don't understand then I'm going to try to do my best to understand it." And let the person take the lead, as opposed to just saying “no, no, no, that shouldn't bother you. You're just a sexual agent in situation. I'm just going to ignore this completely.”

Jess (23:22):

So what language would you recommend to white folks in terms of if you are going to be playing with a person of colour? Like do you recommend that a white person bring it up to maybe acknowledged potential triggers or feelings in advance? Is this something that you recommend from the onset, that we actually talk about race before engaging in BDSM play?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (23:46):

I mean that's a good idea, in terms of the way that we start to play. But also I think that it really is up to the person, because not everyone of colour immediately wants to have that discussion. So basically I allow the person of colour or the marginalized person to define the terms. For example, I have a component in my workshops, talking about being trans and non binary, and how do we navigate gender when we are a dealing with BDSM, and simply just allowing people to sort of define their own bodies and to find their own identities on their own terms and basically by saying, “look, I want to be called mistress and this is just how I see my identity in this particular situation.” That is sort of driving not only the eroticism but also it drives the idea that you're honouring this person's identity within that specific scene. So on a similar wavelength, you can ask questions like if that person happens to find this idea of race sexually appealing. You know bring that up with their partners like, “is this okay, for me to actually use these certain terminologies or words that are sort of associated with these racialized ideas”? And bring that up to the individual person before they play when they're sort of negotiating, if that is something that they find erotic. If not then it's like, okay, there’s nothing I can do other than specifically focus on the specific terminology that the other person's comfortable with.

Jess (25:10):

I wonder if you can ask a question like you know, “is there anything about your identity or experience that you want me to consider or that you want me to be aware”? To kind of open up the floor and not force folks to for example talk about race, but to just open up so that we know that maybe it's a safe space to talk about race. Like I think about you know you're talking about language and we kind of get into the territory of fetishization and of course fetishization with consent can be fun, but for folks who are on the receiving end and aren't welcoming it. Like for me for example, I kind of spent my whole teenagers and twenty's being fetishized as an Asian woman. Like being spoken to a certain way, not in sexual places, but just you know I was bartending. The way people spoke to me, the things they said about me, even people in my social circle or even within family, extended family and in-laws making jokes that felt super unwelcome. So I think I have a little bit of fear of being fetishized. Like Brandon, I can even recall people saying stuff about like you having yellow fever, and I've got zero patience, zero tolerance and there's no turn on element for me in that.

Brandon (26:21):

I didn't say that, but somebody said that to me. But yeah, it's disgusting. It's there,

Jess (26:24):

It’s also your job to stand up.

Brandon (26:26):

I totally agree it. It's my job to speak up when that situation arises and when I see it happen too and that’s also you made reference to, I can remember family members who've said things.

Jess (26:40):

And I gotta just say I laughed it off at the time, because I was young and didn't wanna start shit.

Brandon (26:45):

And looking back now, like the fact that I didn't say anything, I'm embarrassed for that, like it's not how I want to act and yeah, I mean really there's so many layers .

Jess (26:56):

And I think that's why it's so important that you're opening up these conversations, like I'm so glad they’re in these BDSM communities. But I would love to see it reach a broader community. You know, even among therapists and among educators in the field of sexuality, because I know there are many folks listening in and within just folks who are enthusiasts of these topics. So that's why I'm happy you’re offering these online courses. If people aren't specifically in BDSM, do you think there's still value in joining the conversation with your course?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (27:26):

Absolutely because I think that these topics are very much focusing on these broader issues. Because ultimately I like to think about it when we're in the work setting and we're thinking about questions around negotiation for pay and things like that, and like questions around equity when we're trying to make sure that people are being paid properly and we’re making sure that we’re valuing their labor. These conversations are equally important, like how do you bring these conversations up? It's sort of these communication skills that are the heart of both BDSM and some of the exchanges that we have in the real world that are very important.

Jess (28:05):

Yeah that makes sense and we often say that in some of these subcultures related to sexuality there are these discussions being facilitated that are specific to say BDSM, or kink, or LGBTQ groups, or consensual non monogamy groups, but these conversations are relevant to absolutely everyone. It's not just our small group or subculture for whom the benefit really resonates. It's really for everybody. So I encourage people to to check out your BDSM course and again, we’ll put the link in the show notes. Now as you facilitate these conversations around social justice approaches to BDSM and sex and relationships more generally, what is it you want people to take away from the conversation, like what is it you wanna change in in a year or five years, if you snapped your fingers and your work was done? What is it you want people to do or say differently?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (28:56):

Well I just want people to understand that even though they see things like social justice and equality issues that’s separate from sexuality issues, I want them to see the relationship between the erotic and the idea that all these things happen within a sort of public sphere of social inequality. And I feel like the more that we're able to address this consciously, the better our sex lives will be and the better you know, everyone's lives will be. I feel like, I offer people tool set in order to sort of understand these issues, where it's like even though we're talking about sex we're talking equity more broadly.

Jess (29:39):

I love that. I appreciate that so much and for folks maybe who are feeling hesitant, or I think to be fair some of us even get our backup, we think “we know that” or “we treat people equitably,” is there a reflection or something we can consider to really dig a little deeper on this topic?

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (29:54):

Well I mean, I would actually even think about some of our interactions, like thinking about some of the ways in which you know, we might have had conversations with people and even though we think will be a very openminded, what conversations have went wrong. Like what interactions have went wrong, for whatever reason, like even if we might have said that “oh well its the other person” like, “well wait a second, maybe there might have been something I could have learned or done better in that situation that would have led to more pleasant outcome.”

Jess (30:23):

I’ve got a whole list of those those things to reflect upon like for me I find it so easy. I'm like “yep. I remember that time” and I remember them forever and ever, conversations I regret.

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (30:36):

Oh absolutely and even when I've had interactions where you know, if I just pulled back and if I just listened, or if I just pulled back and actually communicated where the other person's feelings, their presence were heard you know? Maybe that interaction would have done better. But in order for me to actually hear that other person I needed to have done the work, really value and acknowledge their position. And so I think that the tool set that I’m offering, it helps folks to kind of pullback and be like “huh. Maybe there are other factors that are affecting how I’m actually going through this experience. And maybe if I sort of identify these factors, maybe I can then have more equitable relationships, regardless.”

Jess (31:21):

Thank you for that, absolutely, doing the work and it's an ongoing process. It's not a one time thing. We don't have to wait till a conflict is staring us in the face. We don't have to wait till we're in a relationship that seems specifically relevant to this, so I do encourage people to go and learn more at www.gettingwealthy.com. Dr Ali Mushtaq, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Ali Mushtaq (31:31):

Thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure being on here.

Jess (31:35):

Much appreciated, and thank you for joining us. Keep sending in your questions please. So we can tailor our topics to your interest. And a reminder of course that the OHMYG is on sale with code DRJESS this week. Thirty percent off head on over to http://www.iobatoys.com to shop and save. And we're off to keep celebrating our twenty years together all week long.

Brandon (32:00):

I’m really looking forward to celebrating, and hopefully another 60 years. And you know let your partner know if you appreciate them. I think that is something that I really enjoyed the other night. Just lying in bed and reflecting back on the last 20 years, so whether it's two months or fifty years, I think share how you feel with your partner.

Jess (32:19):

I liked what came after lying in bed and reflecting. I feel like, I need 88 more years. I feel like in 60 years. I'm only going to be like I don't know, 81? Is that right? Wait, I’m wrong.

Brandon (32:30):

I mean I'm no mathematician, and you know there may be a bit of an age discrepancy between you and I right now, if that's the case. Because I think in 60 years you might be over 100.

Jess (32:44):

Wait, I can’t, I'm not doing the math okay. Fine, 60 years. I just wanna live to at least 108. That's all.

Brandon (32:49):

Sold.

Jess (32:50):

Folks, I hope you do have something to celebrate this week as well, and hope you're feeling well wherever you at. So that's it for today. Have a great one.

(33:00):

You're listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.